Infobugs: Contagious Transmission of Thoughts, Emotions, and Behavior – PediaCast 594
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Show Notes
Description
Dr Henry Xiang visits the studio as we consider infobugs. These small, shareable bits of information spread quickly and shape thoughts, emotions, and behavior. They can be a driving force for violence and bullying… or instruments of kindness and support. Tune in to learn more!
Topic
Infobugs
Guest
Dr Henry Xiang
Center for Pediatric Trauma Research
Nationwide Children’s Hospital
Links
Infobugs: Agent for Contagious Transmission of Violence, Suicide, and Other Social Events
The Contagious Spread of Bullying among Chinese Adolescents through Large School-Based Social Networks
Episode Transcript
[Dr Mike Patrick]
This episode of PediaCast is brought to you by the Center for Pediatric Trauma Research at Nationwide Children's Hospital.
[MUSIC]
[Dr Mike Patrick]
Hello everyone and welcome once again to another episode of PediaCast. We are a pediatric podcast for moms and dads.
This is Dr. Mike coming to you from the campus of Nationwide Children's Hospital. We're in Columbus, Ohio. It's episode 594.
We're calling this one Infobugs: Contagious Transmission of Thoughts, Emotions, and Behavior. I want to welcome all of you to the program. We are so happy to have you with us.
Kids catch more than colds. They can also catch ideas. Today we're going to explore Infobugs, which spread information infections online and through peer networks, sometimes fueling violence, self-harm, bullying, and even suicide.
We're going to explore the world of Infobugs as we help parents understand how these message bugs spread, warning signs to watch for, and how families can build strong mental immune systems and even spread beneficial Infobugs like kindness and helping others. Of course, in our usual PediaCast fashion, we have a terrific guest joining us in the studio to discuss this topic. Dr. Henry Xiang is director of the Center for Pediatric Trauma Research at Nationwide Children's Hospital. He will be with us shortly. Before we get to him, I do want to remind you the information presented in every episode of our podcast is for general educational purposes only. We do not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals.
If you're concerned about your child's health, be sure to call your health care provider. Also, your use of this audio program is subject to the PediaCast Terms of Use Agreement, which you can find at pediacast.org. So, let's take a quick break.
We'll get Dr. Henry Xiang settled into the studio, and then we will be back to talk about Infobugs. It's coming up right after this.
[MUSIC]
[Dr Mike Patrick]
Dr. Henry Xiang is director of the Center for Pediatric Trauma Research at Nationwide Children's Hospital and a professor of pediatrics at the Ohio State University College of Medicine. He has a passion for keeping kids, teenagers, and families safe by raising awareness and preventing the spread of Infobugs. Now, you may be asking yourself, what in the world are Infobugs, and why are they an important consideration for parents? Well, you are about to find out.
But before we dig in, let's offer a warm PediaCast welcome to our guest, Dr. Henry Xiang. Thank you so much for stopping by the studio today.
[Dr Henry Xiang]
Thank you so much, Dr. Mike, for having me here.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, we are really happy to have you, and I'm excited to talk about this because I really feel like this is one of those things that parents may not have heard of before, but by the end of our conversation, I think it's going to make a lot of sense to them. Why don't we start with just a definition? What exactly is an Infobug, especially for families who are hearing this term for the first time?
[Dr Henry Xiang]
I coined the Infobugs in a 2022 paper I published in Injury Prevention. I called the Infobugs, in a simple language, is a 9-form small unit of information, such as messages, images, posts, and stories that can infect people's thoughts and emotions, similar to how germs infect our body.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, it's a really unique way of thinking about it, but it really is true. Just like bacteria or viruses invade and cause sort of dysfunction of an organ system, when we do come across misinformation and bad information, and what you coined Infobugs, really does get into our head and can then lead to changes in behaviors. Then, of course, there are consequences to changes in behaviors, and so that impacts health outcomes and wellness and all of those things.
In today's world, it would seem, especially with online and digital presence and a lot of Americans just being constantly on the internet, or at least it's in their pocket and we get notifications and such, I'm sure that that helps the spread of Infobugs. But are there other things that make these things more likely today compared to years past?
[Dr Henry Xiang]
Yeah, I think the social media and the internet play an important role in spreading all those Infobugs. I will mention that also Infobugs are not always harmful Infobugs. There are also some good Infobugs, such as Happiness and Kindness.
Scientists have shown that both types of Infobugs can spread through the network of human beings.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
It's like reading a review for something that I'm going to buy on an online shopping site, where you read the reviews before you do something. Often, there are lots more bad reviews than good reviews of things that may be good, because people who are happy with the product just use it, and the people who aren't happy complain. You do get this impression that things are more negative than maybe they really are.
In the case of Infobugs, we think of them as being harmful because often, especially as medical professionals, we come across information out there that can be misleading or is not evidence-based. The sort of bad Infobugs out there really grab our attention, but as you mentioned, there are good Infobugs, too. We can spread kindness and all those things, right?
[Dr Henry Xiang]
Yes. So many scientists have published papers and studies about contagious happiness, contagious kindness. You used the example there, like reviews, and every day people rely on reviews to reserve a hotel, to reserve a restaurant, and some of them bad and some of them good.
But in reality, actually, people are using that information there. Yeah, absolutely.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
And people use Infobugs, too, and it sort of normalizes harmful behaviors, because when we see other people doing a particular behavior, we just think, oh, that's a normal thing and not always think is this a good thing or a bad thing. Why do some Infobugs normalize harmful behavior?
[Dr Henry Xiang]
Yeah, I think, you know, I don't have a comprehensive theory about that, but some people are trying to spread violence messages, or some people unintentionally spread some negative thoughts. For example, there are some scientific evidence showing suicidal ideas could be contagious through social network. Some of them are spread intentionally, some of them are spread not intentionally.
I think this is a new scientific area that we need to work together to advance.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
So, in that case, the Infobug is someone talking about suicide or harming themselves, and then you see it, and you see it, and maybe you see it a third time, and it starts to become more of a normal thing to consider. And then we do see kids who, in response to suicides, often you see clusters of those, or you hear about them in the media. And I would imagine that there are some of those kids who may not have carried out a plan except for the Infobugs that kind of normalize that this is an okay thing to do.
[Dr Henry Xiang]
Yeah, so what's differentiating my theory from other theories or previous theories is we need to treat the information like a life-form agent. So, if we think about the transmission or spread of infection disease, we think about agent. In the old models, usually it's the virus or COVID-19 virus and other bugs, flu bugs.
And then the second factor is the host or the people who are infected by those viruses. And the third one is the environment. We can use the exact same model of epidemiology transmission in the Infobugs transmission or spread.
For example, we have to figure out what's the original agent of that message, either a violence message or a suicidal message spread. If we can do that, we can develop some interventions to prevent that from spreading in the social network. So that's very important for us to put that in that triangular model of infection disease in a way we were treating the Infobugs spread.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, so in that model, as we think about prevention, so disease prevention, we want to avoid contact, we want to wash our hands often, we want to get immunizations to protect against particularly harmful agents that can cause illness. And in this case, what exactly is it then that we can do to prevent harmful impacts of these Infobugs, especially as we think about self-harm and suicide?
[Dr Henry Xiang]
Yeah, so the advantage of having a conception model like that is we can sort of like think about or design programs that will prevent the spread of harmful information or promote the spread of beneficial Infobugs. For example, let's talk about the agent. So, if we find out violence messages or suicidal negative messages becoming in this social network, there are ways for, I'm not saying that society still needs to make an agreement on whether that's a good way or we don't want to prevent it.
We want to prevent people expressing their thoughts or opinions, but there are certain violence messages that need to be watched and need to be dealt with. That's the agent piece. And then the host piece is to talk about people.
There are some vulnerable people over there, we want to prevent them from exposure to those violence or negative thoughts, such as parental supervising of internet use or social media use. That's exactly the interventions we can use based on that triangular model of disease transmissions.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, I saw in the news that Australia passed a law recently banning social media use in folks less than 16 years of age. I'm not sure how they are going to enforce that. I don't think that that is something that would go over very well in the United States just in terms of our culture.
But the point of parents supervising internet usage is something that families can do, although the degree to which you can do that is also limited to some degree because most preteens and teenagers have phones in their pocket with connection to the internet and it may be very hard to police what they come across. So I would think similarly to vaccines preventing illness when one of those organisms does invade our body, sort of a vaccine would be in my mind, and I know this has maybe not been studied, but if I were to present a hypothesis for future work, I would think that just parents on a daily basis just talking to their kids and seeing what are their thoughts, what are they thinking about, what's important that's going on in their lives. And whether that's happening at the dinner table or during car rides or whenever it is, I would think that communication between parents and their kids just to help with insight and critical thinking and those sorts of things would be helpful.
But I don't know how you test that.
[Dr Henry Xiang]
Yeah, actually, that's a wonderful idea. There are some scientists also had published some papers about similar ideas. They call it the mental immune system.
So, you brought up a very important point here. Different culture may view those things differently. And then you brought up Australia is a little bit more westernized culture.
Also, I came from China, so actually the Chinese government is doing something like that to curb the harmful information on the internet. I'm not saying that that is right or wrong, but different culture has different attitude towards this kind of message spreading, all of those things. But bottom line is, I think as a society, we need to spread beneficial info bugs and trying to find some ways to stop or reduce the harmful info bugs.
Yeah, absolutely.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
Speaking of China, there was a study involving about 13,000 Chinese teenagers that related to the contagious aspect of bullying. Can you talk about that study?
[Dr Henry Xiang]
Yeah, I'm honored to collaborate with my colleagues in China. So, I immigrated to the United States about 30 years ago. I still have some connections there.
I feel so grateful to this country. This country gave me the opportunity to build my career here and build my life here. I feel so grateful to this.
You know that study is a large study. We surveyed 13,000 middle school and high school students and asked about their using universal IDs to protect their privacy. And asked them about their friends and friends to friends, up to 10 of those friends.
And then we asked them to report six types of bullying behaviors, which include physical bullying, relational bullying, sexual bullying, opposition bullying, or verbal bullying. And what we found out, actually, bullying behaviors in the school social network can spread in their network. And also, most importantly, if one student has observed more bullying behaviors, they are more likely to bully other people.
So those relationships are important in our scientific field. I think that one has significant implications for the schools to develop programs to reduce bullying among students.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah. And when you think about bullying that happens online, often there are observers and an audience of that bullying. And so even if you're not the one that the bullying is directed toward, the more that you see it, the more it becomes normalized.
And then it is easier for us to sort of respond to things that may be causing us stress in a bullying sort of fashion. And so just by observing it happening to others can increase the incidence. And I suspect that's the kind of thing that this study showed.
[Dr Henry Xiang]
Yeah, I actually think I put that in this concept of the info box. Actually, what was happening in that social network is kind of the message there to say, you know, a bullying is acceptable. And then some of the maybe class leaders and, you know, if they are doing this, you know, other observers or students normalize that, OK, it's acceptable as OK.
But in reality, actually, bullying has significant negative consequences on individual mental health and some of the physical health also. So that's the beauty of this info box theory and the epidemiological transmission models that we can use to explain and design interventions.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, yeah. So, as I understand it, the bullying really then in this study of 13,000 middle and high school students in China, the bullying clustered in friendship clusters. So, it wasn't random.
So, if you had a friend group where there was bullying, that spread within that group so that there was even more bullying compared to a friendship cluster where there was no bullying to begin with. And there continued to be no bullying, again, because of what becomes normalized behavior. And so, the more that you are around bullying, the more you're likely to do it yourself.
And that's why a lot of people who are bullied actually do bully others. There's a lot of folks kind of in the middle there. They're being bullied and being the bully.
But it just shows us that just like a contagious illness, you know, when we're exposed to these negative ideas and thoughts and behaviors, then we're more likely to do them. And the other thing, too, that I thought was interesting with this study is that so if you were maybe not in a bullying cluster and you are friends, though, with someone who is in the bullying cluster, then that could actually spread to the other cluster of friends. And suddenly bullying becomes normalized in a group that it wasn't normalized in before.
So, you're not only impacting your own group of friends, but you may also be impacting other groups of friends that are around you.
[Dr Henry Xiang]
Yeah, that's exactly true. That's why we called bullying can be contagious in a school social network. Yeah, yeah.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
So, then what can parents do? Like, you know, I mentioned, you know, at the dinner table sort of normalizing the conversation of, hey, what's going on in your life? How are your friends doing?
What's you know, what's stressing you out? And I feel, again, this is anecdotal and just based on life skills, not necessarily research. But I think that that's probably easier to do the younger kids are like once kids are teenagers and a parent maybe hasn't been asking daily like, hey, what's up?
Then it becomes a little weird from the kids point of view. But if you sort of normalize the conversations between parents and kids from an early age, it does become a little easier because, again, you've normalized in this sense, open communication is a positive info bug within a family, right?
[Dr Henry Xiang]
Yeah, you're right. You know, so, you know, in the American culture, our children tend to have their own protective privacies when they get older and older, become, you know, teenagers and the young adult, they don't want to share everything with the parents. But there are always some warning signs or some signs you can pick up during your dinner conversation with your children, particularly when they were young.
So, parents need to think about what their children exposed, you know, violent, you know, video, hateful post, you know, glorification of self-harm and who they are connected with. Oftentimes during a conversation, a casual conversation, you can pick up some warning signs or some clues about what's going on. I can, for example, you can even pick up the warning signs of suicidal ideas and negative thoughts, you know, during those conversations.
So that's very important for parents to be closely involved in your children's activities and friendship building and sports and all of other stuff.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
I do want to point out here really quick, and please correct me if I'm wrong about this. So, info bugs can impact behavior when kids and teenagers see particular things, hear particular things from their friends, and it can kind of spread. And we talked about self-harm and suicidal ideation being one of those things that can spread like that.
On the other hand, as I understand it, there is no evidence that parents talking about suicide with their kids increases the risk of suicide in those kids. So, in other words, what I'm saying is you may hear this and say, well, if kids hear about suicide, they're more likely to start thinking about it. But from a parent's standpoint, it is okay to talk about suicide, and that doesn't increase your kids' chances of actually thinking it or doing it.
[Dr Henry Xiang]
So, when you talk about suicidal events in the society, how do you frame that topic is important. You want to have a good, positive conversation with your children. You don't want to have some talk there, normalize that behavior.
And also, in my personal opinion, my wife and I, we came to the United States, the first five years were very hard, and we struggled a lot during that period. Sometimes I learned from that, positive thinking and positive talking will help people avoid those negative and suicidal ideas. The problem is among some of the immigrant families here, they kind of view suicidal depression, bad things and bad things are taboo.
They don't want to talk about it. I think that's not helpful. If you find out your loved ones have negative thoughts and suicidal ideas and depression, you need to encourage them to seek professional help, particularly medical help first.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, absolutely. In your conversations with your kids, if there are warning signs, things like lack of interest in things that used to interest them, them talking about suicide or self-harm, it's sort of knowing what's happening in your kids' friend group. Is there someone who is struggling with self-harm ideas?
Is there someone who committed suicide? And then if you're able to tell that those things are going on, then that's a great time to talk about it and to let your kids know that you care for them and you love them and you want the best for them and you can talk about anything is all going to be important. And then as you say, if your child is going down that route, then you definitely want to get professional help.
Where do parents start with that? Where do you look first for help?
[Dr Henry Xiang]
It depends on the severity of the depression or suicidal ideas. I think professional help; I mean the medical help first. We have mental health services here and we have great psychologists here.
You need to contact them and try to arrange the professional treatment here. Those kids need to be evaluated by the professionals here. Nationwide Children's Hospital is a great hospital.
We have experts in this area.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
And for families everywhere, your regular doctor, your kid's primary care provider is going to be a really great place to start because they are seeing families who are impacted by similar events and have experience with who in your local community you can refer someone to. So even though they may not be the mental health expert, they know who the mental health experts are and can point you in the right direction. And I'm sure they would be happy to hear from you as a parent if you have any concerns.
What are some practical family-level steps that parents can do to prevent the spread of harmful info bugs?
[Dr Henry Xiang]
I think, you know, open conversation about what the kids see online in the school. And also maybe, you know, if you feel concerned about some of the languages or some of the bullying behavior at your school, you need to go out and reach out to the school administrator to say this is not acceptable. You know, we need to do something together.
Parents' groups, you know, sometimes also could be very powerful in the communities. So, there are a lot of ways, a lot of channels for you to take actions. I think the bottom line is to pay attention to those warning signs and take actions.
Yeah, yeah.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
It's really important for parents to advocate for their kids in that manner. And sometimes we have to be the squeaky wheel and do something we may feel, like you said, getting in touch with the school administrators. You know, some parents may feel very comfortable with that and sort of welcome the conversation, and other parents may dread it and really not want to get involved.
And I guess just letting those parents know that, yeah, it's not an easy thing to do, but you're not only having an impact for your own kids, but likely you'll be having an impact for other kids in similar situations because hopefully, you know, school policies will change. And it's certainly worth any discomfort that those conversations may cause. But I just want to say, you know, for parents out there, it's not an easy conversation sometimes, right?
[Dr Henry Xiang]
Yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, we're talking about our own children, our grandchildren, but in some of the situations, you know, your children or grandchildren can pick up some negative things going on among other friends. If you see serious warning signs there, you know, you take actions actually where you are helping those children.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, absolutely. Now, you mentioned that infobugs are not always negative. There are beneficial infobugs.
How can parents sort of seed those in their families? You know, how can we use positive infobugs to help our kids' mental health?
[Dr Henry Xiang]
You bring up a very good point now. I'm doing research. I'm trying to build this new concept called family resilience into our research program.
So, there are a lot of situations where families have adversities, negative experiences, and challenges. What often happened is we did not emphasize enough that family resilience will play an important role. Let me give you an example.
So, if your loved ones suffered a severe TBI patient, TBI, traumatic brain injuries, if your loved ones, your children or grandchildren suffer moderate to severe traumatic brain injuries, they will definitely have a lot of negative mental health issues. During the recovery period, we try to encourage the family members or caregivers to have more positive attitude and positive communications with the patient, but also among the family members. Because that's kind of the new concept of beneficial infobugs.
If you use that approach, you are trying to circulate positive atmosphere in your families, and that will definitely help the patient to recover from the traumatic brain injuries. I use the traumatic brain injuries as an example, but also there are so many examples and situations you can apply the infobugs, such as depressions. Depressions sometimes can be severe and long-term.
Positive family environment, beneficial infobugs, and encouraging messages are very important.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah. So, again, as we've talked about on this show before, modeling behavior, behaving in a way we want our kids to behave in toward them. And we do see that a lot.
In my work in the emergency department, we'll see kids who come in, let's say, with abdominal pain, but it's not new belly pain that just started that morning. Maybe it's been going on for months, and then as you start digging in, you begin to realize that these kids are impacted by depression and negative thoughts and perhaps bullying and thoughts of self-harm that often go along with those chronic belly pain. And from a parent standpoint, when you sort of—I don't want to say—I'm not suggesting that parents ignore their kids' symptoms, but sometimes when you pay too much negative attention towards something, then it becomes more ingrained that, oh, yes, I do have a bellyache.
Maybe the parent's asking day in and day out, how's your belly feeling? Instead of sort of modeling, hey, let's go do something. Let's get your mind off of this, and let's find ways that we can improve your quality of life and improve your friendships and those sorts of things.
So, really, from a parent behavior standpoint, that can make a big difference in kids' lives.
[Dr Henry Xiang]
Yeah, absolutely. So, chronic pain is another area my research team is working on. So, you're absolutely right.
So, positive attitude, good behavior, and trying to treat that chronic condition as a part of your life, and then trying to live the normal life patterns, and those are very helpful.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, yeah. Now, there are info bugs that impact parents, too. And so, I think as we talk about this, if parents think about in their own lives what are some potential info bugs that may be impacting them, and especially post-pandemic, there seems to be more and more of an overt sort of attack on science in terms of even at the federal government level.
As we think about immunizations and evidence backing science, and there is a lot of info bugs relating to associations that may not be cause and effect. As we look at vaccines, for example, we can read reports that you see teenagers passing out when they have a particular vaccine. And was it the vaccine itself that did that, or was it more the, you know, getting the vaccine causes you to be stressed, which can suddenly lower your blood pressure and increase your heart rate and make you feel faint?
So, it wasn't necessarily the vaccine itself that caused a kiddo to pass out. It was more the whole environment. But the info bug is that this shot is harmful.
It makes kids have a short episode of unconsciousness. And so, I think what I'm encouraging is just for parents to think critically about the stuff that they come across because they are also being bombarded by info bugs on a daily basis, and the vaccine thing is just one example. There are many others.
[Dr Henry Xiang]
You are definitely right. You know, I think parents need to carefully read those messages and not take it for granted to say, okay, this message makes sense or this is true. You need to seek scientific evidence to have a balanced view of those things.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
And then that then really introduces the role of our peers and the media because those are the areas where we are getting our information from. So, our peers being, you know, other parents on social media, other people who may be concerned about vaccines, for example, certainly the news stories that we see on television and online and on the radio and newspapers and all. We really are just in today's world being bombarded with information.
And some of it is good, some of it is bad. And the more that we, you know, really try to think about things critically and try to find evidence and, you know, the more that we play an active role in looking things up, especially if we're understanding how science works, is going to be helpful rather than just accepting the negative stuff that we see.
[Dr Henry Xiang]
Yeah, I think, you know, we as individuals need to view things from two different perspectives, particularly the opposite views and trying to understand, you know, what they are talking about, what evidence they have and, you know, be open-minded about all of those issues. I think as citizens, I think that's the role we can take.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
So, then as we close out, what is a hopeful message for parents in all of this? Because I feel like there's a little bit of a gray zone, right? I mean, if we could just wave a magic wand and make all these info bugs go away, that would be helpful.
But we can't do that. So, you know, what's a message of hope for parents in the increasing number of info bugs that are out there?
[Dr Henry Xiang]
I think the hopeful message is, you know, as a scientist, we are trying to conduct scientific projects and research to benefit the whole societies and the human beings. I think this info bugs theory will help us to deal with not only harmful info bugs, but also, you know, develop those good programs that will have beneficial info bugs. So, as a scientist, I think I have an important role to play in our activities and our projects.
[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has been a very interesting conversation and an important one. For folks who would like to learn more about this, I'm going to have a couple of links in the show notes to actually journal articles that Dr. Xiang was involved in. So, one is the British Medical Journal, BMJ. It's called Info Bugs, Agents for Contagious Transmission of Violence, Suicide, and Other Social Events. We'll put a link to that one.
And then Dr. Xiang was also senior author on an article in Computers and Human Behavior called The Contagious Spread of Bullying Among Chinese Adolescents Through Large School-Based Social Networks. And again, we'll put links to both of those articles in the show notes, which you can find over at pediacast.org. It's episode 594, and you'll find them right there.
So, once again, Dr. Henry Xiang with the Center for Pediatric Trauma Research at Nationwide Children's Hospital. Thank you so much for stopping by and chatting with us today.
[Dr Henry Xiang]
Thank you so much.
[MUSIC]
[Dr Mike Patrick]
We are back with just enough time to say thanks once again to all of you for taking time out of your day and making PediaCast a part of it. We really do appreciate your support. Also, thanks again to our guest this week, Dr. Henry Xiang, the Director of the Center for Pediatric Trauma Research at Nationwide Children's Hospital. So, this is our final episode of 2025, and I want to take this opportunity first to thank each and every one of you for showing up and listening to the podcast. I get lots of comments from you guys in social media, also through our contact page, and also at the hospital, just folks stopping me in the hallway and saying, hey, I listened to PediaCast and really enjoy it. And so, I just appreciate your support over this, well, it's been many years.
But in particular, this year, just really do appreciate all the support from the audience. We are planning on starting strong in 2026. We are scheduled well into the new year and have some great topics in store for you.
But I did want to take this time again to say thanks and also to wish all of you a happy holiday season. I hope you have a wonderful time with your families, you're able to take some time off work. It may not be on the actual holiday, you know, being in medicine, I understand needing to work on holidays, including Christmas sometimes.
But, you know, even if it's not on the actual day, you know, just getting together with family and friends and loved ones and, you know, taking care of each other and hopefully spreading good info bugs this holiday season. Don't forget, you can find our podcast wherever podcasts are found. We're in the Apple podcast apps, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Audible, YouTube, and most other podcast apps for iOS and Android.
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[MUSIC]
