My Anxiety is Messing Things Up! – PediaCast 595

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Description

School counselor and children’s author, Jennifer Licate, visits the studio as we consider anxiety in children and pre-teens. It is a common experience, but sharing is not always easy. We explore how to navigate difficult conversations with struggling kids!

Topics

Anxiety in Kids
Navigating Difficult Conversations

Guest

Jennifer Licate
Counselor and Author
​Stories by Jennifer

Links

My Anxiety is Messing Things Up
My Anxiety Is Messing Things Up – Teacher and Counselor Activity Guide
Stories by Jennifer
Data and Statistics on Children's Mental Health

Episode Transcript

[Dr Mike Patrick]
This episode of PediaCast is brought to you by Nationwide Children's Hospital. 

[MUSIC]

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Hello everyone and welcome once again to PediaCast. We are a pediatric podcast for moms and dads.

This is Dr. Mike coming to you from the campus of Nationwide Children's Hospital. We're in Columbus, Ohio. It's episode 595.

We're calling this one, My Anxiety is Messing Things Up. I want to welcome all of you to the program. We are so happy to have you with us.

And I also want to say right out of the gate here, Happy New Year to everyone. I hope your holidays were fantastic and you were able to spend some time with a family and friends and loved ones. So important to have that break.

Here we are at the beginning of a new year. And it is the time of the year when there is a lot of anxiety that goes around, not just for kids and teenagers, but for adults too. There's sort of a letdown after the holidays.

Days are short in terms of the amount of daylight. And we often, depending on where you live, are sort of stuck inside more than we are during the rest of the year. And all of those things can come together and play into anxiety.

Also, starting school again, you know, kids have had a break and now they got to get back into the routine. And that can sometimes spark off some anxiety. Or there may be issues with friends or bullying and those sorts of things.

So, I think that it's a great time of the year to talk about anxiety. It's something that many kids experience, but talking about it is not always easy. Today, we are joined by school counselor and children's author Jennifer Licate.

Her book, My Anxiety is Messing Things Up, uses relatable characters and real-life scenarios to help kids understand their feelings and practice healthy coping strategies. We're going to explore common signs of anxiety when families should step in and what parents can do to support children who are struggling. It's an important conversation for families everywhere, so stay tuned.

Before we get to Jennifer, I do want to remind you the information presented in every episode of our podcast is for general educational purposes only. We do not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you're concerned about your child's health, be sure to call your health care provider.

Also, your use of this audio program is subject to the PediaCast Terms of Use Agreement, which you can find at pediacast.org. So, let's take a quick break. We'll get Jennifer Licate settled into the studio, and then we will be back to talk about anxiety and how it messes things up.

We'll talk about it right after this. 

[MUSIC]

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Jennifer Licate is an elementary and secondary school counselor with over a decade of experience helping children and preteens through challenging times. She is also an award-winning author.

Her books focus on topics such as anxiety and friendship issues geared toward children ages 9 through 13. She's here to talk about friendship, anxiety, and her book, My Anxiety Is Messing Things Up. Before we embark on the conversation, let's offer a warm PediaCast welcome to our guest, Jennifer Licate.

Thank you for visiting the studio today.

[Jennifer Licate]
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk with you.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, I am excited too. This is such an important topic for parents, and especially here in the new year, you know, there is a lot of anxiety as kids are going back to school after having had some great time off and hopefully some fun family times. But it can, you know, getting back to the norm can create anxiety.

And so, I was wondering what exactly inspired you to create a children's book that addresses anxiety, and in particular with story and characters?

[Jennifer Licate]
Well, I had the idea to write this book when I was working as a high school counselor. So, as a high school counselor, I was running a small counseling group for students that were struggling with anxiety. And in my group, I primarily had ninth grade students, and I planned a lot of activities for them.

So, we would have activities and discussion questions during each group counseling session. And it was really great because I had a really engaging, almost model group member who was really comfortable sharing and being vulnerable. And she set the tone for the group, allowing other students to feel comfortable sharing too, because they saw her example.

But I thought to myself, if I didn't have someone like this, it would be challenging to get students, some of the students I didn't know because they weren't students on my caseload. So, it would be challenging to get students to feel comfortable talking about such a sensitive topic like anxiety or any mental health subject. So, I wrote this book because I thought this book, it's written in a quick read chapter format.

So, you can read a chapter per group session, or you can read it all at one time. But I thought it would be great to read a chapter at a time and then have discussion questions and activities afterwards. So that the students, if they're not quite comfortable talking about themselves and sharing their own experiences, they can talk about their experiences through what they're seeing in the story characters and learn about themselves and learn about strategies in that way before they're really comfortable opening up and sharing.

So, I thought it would be a really fun and engaging way for them to learn about a serious and complex topic like anxiety.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, absolutely. I know schools cover anxiety like in health class, for example, that may get discussed when kids have one-on-one meetings with school counselors. But when it is addressed, it's often done through textbooks, which explain what anxiety is and what you can do for it, that sort of thing.

How is it that the story aspect of your book compared to just a textbook, how are stories better received by students?

[Jennifer Licate]
I've always found that students really like to be read to. When I first started working as a school counselor, I thought it would only be little kids, like maybe through third grade. But when I first worked as an elementary school counselor, I would go into sixth grade classrooms and read stories, and the kids really loved it.

So, I think it's very easy to immerse yourself in a story like any reader does. And then they're learning about a topic that's very important and very valuable for them to know about in a way that they're really connecting with the characters and rooting for the characters too. Because so much of mental health is knowing that there's hope and knowing that there's strategies they can use or there's changes they can make to make their situation better.

So, they see all that through the character as opposed to how a normal curriculum is taught. And it's this point, then this point, then this point, then these are the strategies, then this is what you do if it becomes very pervasive and serious. And I wanted it to be more engaging and more relatable to children as opposed to just kind of speaking at them but letting them really get involved with the characters and root for the characters through the story.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, yeah. And I think too, when it's presented as just this is what anxiety is and this is how common it is and this is what you can do for it, it almost makes it seem like anxiety is wrong and like you need to do something. But when you do it in the form of a story, it lets students know they're not alone, that there are a lot of other people, that this is a normal feeling that a lot of people have and explains what it is and why it's there and again what you can do about it, but not in a this is bad, almost like this is a common experience with a story.

[Jennifer Licate]
I agree. I agree with that. It makes it feel kind of scary when you present it as, okay, here's what anxiety is and watch out for this, where it's like it's really part of the normal human experience to feel anxiety in certain situations.

And then some people deal with it more pervasively. They deal with anxiety throughout every single day, but it's very normal to feel anxiety when you're doing something that's hard for you or something that really matters to you. So, I wanted students to understand that and understand the symptoms too, how they can recognize that they're feeling anxiety too, as opposed to it being this far-off topic that they would really only experience if things were really wrong or really bad, like you said.

It's like they will experience anxiety throughout their life. So, I thought it would be a great way for them to learn about it.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What are some of the most common signs of anxiety, especially that parents may want to be on the lookout for? You know, we've discussed on this podcast many times that it's important for parents to have open lines of communication with their kids and to be able to talk about anything really from an early age.

Anxiety may not be on the forefront of people's minds unless you're specifically thinking about it. So, what are some signs in kids that may let a parent know that anxiety may be at play in their life?

[Jennifer Licate]
Well, the physical symptoms are a great indicator that your child could be experiencing anxiety because maybe they're not comfortable. I mean, like you said, Dr. Mike, ideally you should be having these open dialogues, and in that case, the child might say to you, you know, I really get nervous when this happens, or I feel, you know, my heart really races when I talk in front of the class, and I feel like I just don't want to do it, and I feel like I just want to run out of the classroom. So, they might say those things to you if they have that open dialogue with you, but they also might not know how to verbalize it.

Whereas the physical symptoms are usually easier for children and preteens to verbalize and also for you to notice. So, the physical symptoms, like I said, is a racing heart, and if you have little kids, you can ask them about if it feels like their heart's beating really fast, you know, an upset stomach. So that could be just butterflies in their stomach.

It could lead to digestive issues. Sleeplessness is a really big indicator if children are having trouble falling asleep because their minds are just racing, and they're having trouble letting go of their thoughts at the end of every day so that they can't get to sleep. Irritability is a harder to detect sign of anxiety because people tend to think preteens and adolescents just tend to be irritable, but it could be caused by anxiety because if you are having so many thoughts going on, and you know, you know, then this happens, and then that adds to all the thoughts going on in your head, and you feel like you can't just find peace and relax and do one thing at a time, then you will get really irritable, especially the stressor of a school day where they're learning new material class after class, and if something gets thrown on them that maybe feels like it topples the apple cart, it's very easy for them to get irritable. So, I would tell parents to look for the physical symptoms in your child. Also headaches can be another physical symptom, sweaty palms, things like that, but also if your child is sharing any thoughts that are causing them fear and causing them worry, those would be the big signs of anxiety that I would think to look for, and especially also if it's moving the child in the direction that they're resisting doing things that they've wanted to do or that they've enjoyed doing in the past, that's another time to really have an open dialogue with your child and say, what's going on? You've always liked this.

Did something happen? Is there a friendship issue going on? Because it might not be anxiety.

It might be that there's another issue going on or someone hurt their feelings or they're feeling like they're not achieving as much as they would like and expect for themselves, but again, all of these physical symptoms or fears or changing their actions that they've done in their past is a really great sign that it's time to have a conversation regardless of what's going on.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, we've said that anxiety is not a bad thing, but actually there are situations where anxiety can actually be healthy. What are some of those?

[Jennifer Licate]
So, I think anxiety can be healthy when you're doing something that really matters to you. If you have a really big test or if you have a presentation or if you have an audition for a play or a dance recital or something like that, if you're feeling anxious, it's because you really care about it and it's important to listen to your body and do the preparation that you can so that you are well prepared to go into the test or to try out for the team that you really want to make or to hopefully get the role in the play that you really care about. So that's a sign to yourself that you're nervous about doing this because it really matters to you and you want to do everything you can to prepare, but that's why coping strategies are really beneficial to kids and adults also because if our body is very stressed, there's certain parts of brain that shut off during those times when your body's really stressed and it's harder to do well in those situations. So that's why I feel like it's really great for kids to know about anxiety and know about coping strategies so that they can use them, especially when there's something that really matters to them and they want to do their best.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, yeah. Speaking of those coping strategies, what are a few of those that parents can help their kids utilize, teach them about, help them utilize it? What are some of those coping strategies?

[Jennifer Licate]
So, the coping strategies that I really like to share, there's a lot, and not every child will love every coping strategy. Some will lend itself to certain personality types or, you know, what your child enjoys and what they like to do. So, one that I think is really great that not all children connect with is journaling because I feel like it's really great to get your thoughts on paper at the end of every day.

Think about, you know, what you wish could have gone differently. Think about your goals for the future. Understand why certain situations made you feel upset or made you feel nervous or made you want to withdraw.

So, I think journaling is really great. Exercise is a really great coping strategy and that can be used during kid's school day. It can even be used if they're feeling nervous before taking a test, they can go and walk and get a drink of water.

They can, you know, if they really want to get their excess energy out, they can go into the restroom and like do some wall pushups to feel a little bit better. So, exercise is really great. And as adults, we know that moving our body every day does have us have a better level of anxiety in our body and reduce the stress and just give us a more even, even feeling and even level.

Music is really great for dealing with anxiety, either slow music to relax or really lively music. And then they can use the exercise of dancing to the music. Deep breaths, deep breathing exercises are a really great strategy and they're great because children always have their breath with them.

So, they don't have to just use the deep breathing exercises before something that's really important to them. If they're taking a test and their anxiety is starting to creep up and they're starting to feel nervous and feeling like maybe they don't know the material. They can do a couple of deep breaths while they're taking the test to lower their anxiety.

And then there's also strategies that children can use in the situation to ground themselves. So, there's grounding strategies. One that I like to tell children to use is to look for five red objects in the room or five blue objects, just to take their mind away from the worrying thought.

So, it doesn't go down this, this path of just the what ifs and, and catastrophize the situation and just kind of take a break from the worrisome thoughts. The grounding exercises are very good for that too. So, there's lots of strategies.

That's why it's really great for parents to know if your child doesn't like the first one you suggest, that's okay. Just give them another one to try.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, because each kiddo, it's going to be different in terms of what works best for them. When should parents look for outside help with anxiety, from their primary care doctor, from a school counselor, from a psychologist? When do you know that you need to get some outside help with this?

[Jennifer Licate]
I would get outside help for your child if you've suggested the coping strategies, you've seen your child practice the coping strategies, and they haven't been enough to reduce their level of anxiety. Maybe they've helped a little bit, or they haven't helped at all. I think that's a sign to see a private practice counselor or talk to your school counselor or talk to your pediatrician, like you said, Dr. Mike, and get some recommendations. Also, if your child is not participating in activities they once enjoyed, either maybe they've always loved soccer and now they're really putting up a fight. They don't want to go to soccer anymore. Maybe they don't want to try out for a team that they've always had a goal of wanting to be a part of because their anxiety is getting the best of them and they don't want to try and they don't want to put themselves through that.

That's another sign that it's time to have a counselor or a therapist help because you don't want the anxiety to hinder them accomplishing their goals and living their best life. Also, if the anxiety reaches a level where it gets scary for the child, like if they're having anxiety attacks or the fears are really just in their mind all the time and they're sharing that with you, I think it's time to get help also.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Sometimes self-harm comes into play and there are kids and teenagers who learn that by practicing self-harm they're able to reduce their anxiety levels. And so, I guess that's something else that parents ought to be aware of that may or may not be associated with suicidal ideation. Those are also things that parents ought to at least have in the back of their mind.

And it is okay to ask. We know that when parents are concerned about self-harm and suicide, talking about it won't put those thoughts or make it more likely that they'll want to do those things. But it's still important to talk about and certainly seek help if those things are happening.

[Jennifer Licate]
That's a really great point, Dr. Mike, because the self-harm is always a sign that it's time to seek some assistance for helping your child. Because, like you said, they are sometimes related to suicidal ideation. Not always, but they're definitely a sign that your child is struggling and needs some intervention.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, yeah. What are some common triggers for anxiety in kids and teenagers? And I think this is important to keep in mind because it's another data point for parents.

Like if your child is experiencing trigger for anxiety, then you may want to look for a little closer. So, what are some of the situations where we could expect kids and teens to have anxiety?

[Jennifer Licate]
So, the number one trigger, I think, is social situations. So, if your child is nervous in social situations, and it might not be all peers that they're nervous around. It could be just certain groups of kids that they're nervous around.

That can be a trigger for anxiety. It can be a trigger to talk in front of the class and be in front of the class. And this is another opportunity to reach out to the school counselor because as your child works through that, there might be some assistance that the school could offer.

Maybe your child could do the presentation just in front of the teacher. Maybe there is an alternative assignment that your child could do. So that's why it's really great to know what your child's triggers are so that you can help and reach out for assistance.

Academics and tests are another big trigger for children because they want to do well. And this is a measure of how well they're doing. And then they also compare how they do against their peers, which we wish they wouldn't do, but they continue to do it.

And sometimes it is tied into how they feel about themselves, how they do on the test. Children sometimes have fears about medical concerns. Sometimes a child will have a choking incident and then be fearful about eating certain types of foods.

So there unfortunately is so many different triggers for anxiety, but the big ones I would look out for in children is related to performance. So, either performance in front of the classroom, performance on tests, performance if maybe they don't associate their self-worth and their self-value with how they do academically. Maybe they relate it to how they perform, you know, in their art or on a sports team.

The anxiety could be related to that performance. So those are the main ones. And then sometimes children also have anxiety about their family member being hurt, but that's usually triggered by something.

So, you would be more aware of that as a family, but those are the main ones.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, yeah. And I'll say that kids who experience anxiety, the vast majority of them do have triggers that you could hopefully identify and help them with coping strategies. There are situations though where there may not be a trigger and, you know, generalized anxiety is a medical condition in and of itself.

And then there are other medical conditions that could cause symptoms that are similar. You know, hyperthyroidism, for example, comes to mind, and there are others as well. So, you know, if you're not finding triggers, but your child is experiencing those sorts of symptoms, it is a good idea to talk to their doctor and see if you need to explore other things that could be happening.

Now, when parents do go to talk to their kids about anxiety, you know, a lot of kids are going to just say, oh, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. How can parents help their children open up about the anxiety they're experiencing?

[Jennifer Licate]
I like to tell parents to have data points to say, like, well, you've said that you have trouble falling asleep every night. So why do you feel like you're having trouble? If you don't have worrisome thoughts, what else do you think is going on?

Is there a way we can help you? Can we help you have a better, more relaxing nighttime routine? Should you maybe go to bed earlier?

Is there, you know, like a special calming drink you want? So, as a parent, if they say no initially, I will keep the conversation going because that's an opportunity for them to share with you what it could be. If it's not anxiety, maybe it's something different.

So, I think it's really important to continue the conversation when they do say, no, it's not anxiety, I'm fine, and just use information you've seen and say, well, I've seen you do this, and that can sometimes be a symptom of anxiety. Is that how you're feeling?

[Dr Mike Patrick]
You know, parents oftentimes feel anxious themselves. Do you think that that's something that they should talk about with their kids? Like, hey, I'm feeling anxious, and this is why.

Or is it better to, I don't know, for parents to feel like they've got it together?

[Jennifer Licate]
Yes, I think it's very important for parents to model that they have ups and downs, too. They don't have everything figured out. There are certain situations that they're nervous about, and they want to do really well at work, and oh, I have this big presentation, I'm really hoping it goes well.

And then when they come home from work that day, they can say to their child, oh, I had my presentation, I prepared for so long, and I'm so happy it went well. I was nervous, but I worked through it, and it went well. So that positive modeling of the range of human emotion I think is so beneficial for children because we're all trying to do our best, and I think it's great for kids to see their parents trying to do their best instead of feeling like their parents have it all figured out, and that at some age they're going to have it all figured out, and nothing's going to make them nervous, and situations aren't going to make them anxious. I mean, even traveling sometimes, that can make people anxious. So, saying things like, okay, I want to make sure we're getting this information right.

I don't want us to miss the train or the bus, so okay, so we have to leave it this time. Any of those situations that you can model for your children where you have to plan to, it doesn't just instinctively come to you, oh, we're leaving this time. The suitcases need to be packed this time.

It all involves planning, and the planning can help with anxiety, especially in children who tend to be anxious. So, I think it's really great for parents to model that, and it's really great for your child to have the experience of saying, oh, how did that meeting go, or how did that interview go, or the presentation go? I think it's really nice for children to be able to be caring about their parents and show their parents that they care, because sometimes that relationship isn't reciprocated, but the children do feel that way about their parents, but sometimes they don't have a way to check in with their parents and show that, and that's helping not just deal with anxiety, but it's also helping show them positive relationships and positive give-and-takes in relationships.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, yeah. And there is a fine line to some degree with that, just in terms of there may be a situation that a kiddo's going through, let's just say a child's been diagnosed with cancer, and they have chemotherapy, and there's a lot of anxiety, and of course the parents have a lot of anxiety. To some degree, you want to be open and honest about these things, but there's also a time and a place, and sometimes kids need parents to not show that they're anxious in order to give them some sense of security.

Not all the time, it's a balance.

[Jennifer Licate]
It is a balance, and that's a perfect example, because your kids are kids, and they need you to be strong for them, and they need you to model that it's going to be okay, even if you're not 100% sure that it's going to be okay. Your example, Dr. Mike, with cancer, we hope and believe that it's going to be okay, but we don't always know that it's going to be okay. I feel like kids need to have that hope and that faith modeled for them, that it is going to be okay so they can relax and be a kid and feel comfortable sharing their concerns with you.

I say that to parents too, even on smaller issues. If your child comes home and tells you that they had a fight with a friend, and you get all riled up, and you feel like you're fighting the battle for your child, it is within reason, because then the child feels nervous to tell you because they feel like they made you angry. It's okay to say, oh, I understand how you could be upset about that.

That would hurt my feelings too if someone talked to me like that, but to go to this level of extreme emotions or when extreme situations are going on, like someone has cancer, it is important for you to be the strength for your child and model how to positively deal with these situations. That's a really great point. I love that point, Dr. Mike.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Thank you.

[Jennifer Licate]
You're welcome.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
This time of year, is particularly hard for lots of folks, not just kids and teens, but adults as well. We're past the holidays. The amount of daylight is shorter.

Depending on where you live, it may be more difficult to get outside and be active. What are some suggestions for helping kids cope with anxiety, particularly as we start a new year?

[Jennifer Licate]
As we start a new year, you're right. There are the winter blues. We talk about it all the time.

The mental health issues are sometimes in the rise in the months because it is easier to feel isolated when we can't get outside. I live in Pennsylvania, so we can't get outside. It gets very chilly.

This has been a cold winter. Creating some fun for your child, planning activities that take advantage of the season, going ice skating, going sledding, getting outside and taking your dog for a walk, even though it's made the walk 10 or 15 minutes. Joke about how cold it is.

Just get your child active and moving. I feel like when children are isolated and just go up into their room and are on their iPad or their devices and are just isolating themselves, that's when they can feel lonely and it can make the mental health concerns become even more severe for them. But if you're checking in with your child and planning activities and asking them how their day was, I would want to say no one really likes the cold months.

I know that some people do, but I feel like it's a minority. Tell your child that. As soon as we're going to turn around, it's going to be March and we're going to be feeling better and the weather's going to break and it's going to feel better.

I think just, again, being honest with your child, checking in with your child, talking to your child, and planning activities for them. If they're not someone who's active, then plan things as a family and even cozy activities like watching a movie together or anything like that, just to keep them active and keep them engaged with you and with their peers.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, so important. Let's turn our attention to your book, My Anxiety is Messing Things Up, which we said is a story that hopefully kids and young teens can relate to. How can families use this book to spark meaningful conversations?

[Jennifer Licate]
You can read this book with your child, or you can have your child read it on their own and you've read it on your own and talk about it after. It's a really great starting point, especially we talked about how it sometimes does take a little while for parents to figure out if your child needs to see a counselor or a therapist outside of school. So this can be a great first step to teach your child about what anxiety is, some of the physical symptoms, so that your child can look for them in themselves and start to recognize, oh, this is why I have this concern, or this is why my stomach is fluttering before the test, or this is why my hands are sweaty before giving a presentation.

So, it teaches them about their physical symptoms of anxiety, what anxiety is, and also coping strategies. So, it's a really great first step. And there's also teacher and counselor activity guides.

If you are not sure how to have the conversation with your child, it gives some questions you can ask to your child just to spark conversation and relate to how your child would deal with the situation if they were in that situation. Because that's what's really great is to prepare your child for what happens if they go into school and a situation like this happens, so that they're prepared ahead of time and can think through possible solutions ahead of time so that they're not in that situation where something happens and they just get really nervous and either choose a bad way to respond or are not sure how to respond at all and don't respond.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Are the parents' guide or the teachers' and counselors' guide, is that a part of the book or is that a separate publication?

[Jennifer Licate]
That's a separate publication. But you can, so the storybook, the chapter book has just the story, but it has a lot of illustrations. So, it has a lot of color illustrations.

If parents are really interested in having the activities and the discussion questions and that's their primary thing they're looking for, then they can just get the teacher and counselor activity guide. It has the story and the discussion questions and activities, but not the illustrations. So, you know your child and if you want to just read the story to them, then you can get the teacher and counselor activity guide and that reads the story and then you can read the story to them and ask the discussion questions and activities.

[Dr Mike Patrick]
Yeah, perfect. And we will put links to both the book itself and to the teacher-counselor-parent guide along with it, so folks can find those in the show notes over at pdacast.org. This is episode 595.

Just look for the show notes and we will have links. We're also going to have links to a site on data and statistics on children's mental health from the CDC, just so folks, if you want to learn more about anxiety and how common it is, you can check out that link. And then your personal website, Stories by Jennifer, we'll put a link in the show notes to that as well.

So once again, Jennifer Licate, counselor and author, thank you so much for stopping by today.

[Jennifer Licate]
Oh, thank you so much for having me.

[MUSIC]

[Dr Mike Patrick]
We are back with just enough time to say thanks once again to all of you for taking time out of your day and making PediaCast a part of it. We really do appreciate your support. Also, thanks again to our guests this week, Jennifer Licate, counselor and author.

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It's because Nationwide Children's is jointly accredited by all those professional organizations that we can offer the credit you need to fulfill your state's continuing medical education requirements. Shows and details are available at the landing site for that program, PDACastCME.org. You can also listen wherever podcasts are found.

Simply search for PediaCast CME. If you are a medical faculty member, we have a podcast for you. It's called FAMEcast.

It is a faculty development podcast from the Center for Faculty Advancement, Mentoring, and Engagement at The Ohio State University College of Medicine. You can find FAMEcast at FameCast.org and wherever podcasts are found by searching for FAMEcast. Thanks again for stopping by.

And until next time, this is Dr. Mike saying, stay safe, stay healthy, and stay involved with your kids. So long, everybody.

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